Bob Dylan (4) vs. T. S. Eliot; Helmsley advances

Tom has no idea what joker put seven dog lice in my Iraqi fez box, but he gives a class-based analysis in favor of the man from Ithaca:

[Leona’s] use of the phrase ‘little people’ would surely make the audience want to rise up and overthrow the speaker, voiding the seminar. I will vote for the person who at least reminds me that ‘a working class hero is something to be’.

Ben follows up:

I’m not impressed by the Wikipedia article on Leona. Maybe a good character for a Knives Out #3 but doubt there’s much interesting for a seminar — so you have a lot of money and are a mean weirdo? Yawn.

For John I ended up reading the whole 404 error page on his website. If he can do a compelling 404 page, I’m sure he can swing a seminar. I also bought a couple books. John Lennon hands down.

A compelling 404 page—that really is impressive! And John’s thoughts on collaboration suggest he could give a legitimately interesting academic seminar that I’d enjoy.

So I was all ready to move John into the next round, but then I thought I’d check what Ben had said . . . I went to John’s website, clicked on some links trying to reach the fabled 404 page, and instead came across this page, which reveals that John has a podcast!

There’s too many podcasters out there already, and the last thing we need is one more in our seminar series. So Leona it is, following our (previously unstated) No Podcasters rule.

Also, a good character for a Knives Out #3? That could be fun! Maybe Rian Johnson will show up too and we can get into a big debate about whether Brick is overrated.

Today’s matchup

Two poets. The fourth-seeded person in the “Cool people” category, vs. an overrated (in my opinion) author who is known by his initials. I really wish I’d chosen P. G. Wodehouse instead. When it comes to mid-twentieth-century upper-class twit British fascist-sympathizer authors, I prefer the funny one. Too late now, though!

So what’ll it be? It’s all right now, or fear in a handful of dust? Neither Bob nor Tom is known to be a particularly nice guy, but they’re two of the most quotable people around. We’d just be sitting there in the audience waiting for Bob to say, “tangled up in blue” or Tom to say, “reasons of race and religion combine to make any large number of free-thinking Jews undesirable.” What I’m saying is that either of them would have the potential to kill with new material, but either could also coast with a greatest-hits set, and nobody would complain.

We’re relying on you, the loyal commenters, to provide the raw material for our decision on who (or, as Eliot would surely say, “whom”) to advance to the next round.

Again, here are the announcement and the rules.

18 thoughts on “Bob Dylan (4) vs. T. S. Eliot; Helmsley advances

  1. For what it’s worth, Bob Dylan sang about T. S. Eliot (in Desolation Row–which came out the same year Eliot died) but I don’t think T. S. Eliot ever sang about Bob Dylan.

    Not sure which direction that points in, but surely it merits consideration

    • Yep – I’d love to hear from Bob about what exactly it was that Eliot was fighting Pound for in the captains tower – I guess Eliot might even be able to tell us himself.

      Or how about we just split the difference and get Ezra Pound to give the seminar instead: That might calm Andrew from “…Shouting, ‘Which side are you on?'”.

  2. Two Nobel Laureates in Literature. IMO, Dylan’s acceptance speech (sent in about 6 months after the December ceremony because he had prior commitments) is far better the Eliot;s.- https://www.nobelprize.org/prizes/literature/2016/dylan/lecture/ Dylan fought injustice (“Hurricane” remains one of my favorites) while Eliot remained docile on this. What clinches it for me is that Dylan will for sure bring his guitar and harmonica and provide musical interludes during his seminar.

    • Also I’m not even going to give the algorithm the satisfaction of watching me search for Martha Stewart’s podcast but I’m so sure she has one—perhaps more than one—that I’m going to put it out there as a fact.

  3. I see Goldhammer’s vote and raise him one. Change the rules (changing rules is a sometimes theme here) and advance both literature Nobelists to hear how they share the stage. T. S. Dylan and Bob Eliot might beat the competition in all successive rounds and end up the winner(s).

    PS Andrew. Can you update the bracket displayed each round to show the winners of the rounds so far?

  4. Both of them wrote in old men’s voices when they were still young. The Love Song of J. Alfred Prufrock was written when TS was still a student. I’m Bob’s fan (from the 60s to the mid70s), but he has been coasting for much too long now. TS doesn’t have that much filler, he was unfashionable, attacked as high-brow culture, even when he was a hit -see the reactions to the Waste Land, from the WC Williams circle, the beats and all the rest. Antisemite, yes, like most of the Cambridge/Oxford sect. But why put that stone around his neck? He was a Groucho fan, too. I picked up the Four Quartets a few months ago, it has aged well, still readable. Right here, right now I prefer Elliot, a sad character and a sufferer, but he would have never played for a private, millionaire-only show in the desert.

    • I’d actually quibble with the “coasting” reference since Bob is still producing pretty vital and high quality music, most notably with 2020’s Rough and Rowdy Ways. Is it groundbreaking stuff? No. But compared to his contemporaries, Dylan’s music keeps evolving and sounding good. Neil Young puts out an album a year, but it’s mostly “meh.” The Stones haven’t had a good album since the ’70’s. Now if Dylan were to sing his seminar, I think it would be quite engaging, still full of unexpected but insightful lyrical turns. If he has to speak, though, then it might just be some mumble-jumble.

    • “Antisemite, yes, like most of the Cambridge/Oxford sect. But why put that stone around his neck?” — those of us on the receiving end would quite like that stone to remain in place, thank you.

    • MaximB and brianG:: I’m with you. Prufrock is remarkable for a college student to have written. Unfortunately, there won’t be time yet
      for a hundred indecisions,
      for a hundred visions and revisions,
      as I arrived late
      and Andrew has already decided on Bob Dylan.

      Four Quartets HAS aged remarkably well, you’re right! In Little Gidding, I am reminded of running into a former instructor, professor, academician with sardonic humor:
      “I caught the sudden look of some dead master
      Whom I had known, forgotten, half recalled…
      And he: ‘I am not eager to rehearse
      My thoughts and theory which you have forgotten.
      These things have served their purpose: let them be…”

      Andrew: T.S. Eliot was born in the Midwest. He was American, although he did become a British citizen. Fascist? No. Anti-semite? Yes, probably. I concur with Robin Morris about that.

      “Eliot can’t change the reality of loss, but if I can think with him through his poetry that

      We die with the dying:
      See, they depart, and we go with them.
      We are born with the dead:
      See, they return, and bring us with them.

      —then I feel all shall be well.”

      As always, shantih, shantih, shantih.

  5. Please note that at some point in his career, 4th seed in “cool people” was also called like 1st seed in “traitors”, which I guess put him into the “namesakes” category.

  6. Eliot did make recordings as well. Maybe it’s a little high school English of me, but I still find his prufrock reading haunting and engaging. Could be worth some stage time.

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